JOHN YANG: Since Russia invaded Ukraine last year, Moscow has continued its clamped down on independent media within its borders, many Russian journalists fled rather than risk imprisonment for not toeing the government's line.
One of them is journalist Mikhail Zygar, whose book "War and Punishment: Putin, Zelenskyy, and the Path to Russia's Invasion of Ukraine" is coming out in July.
Thanks so much for joining us.
MIKHAIL ZYGAR, Former Editor-In-Chief, TV Rain: Thank you for having me.
JOHN YANG: You left Moscow for Berlin on February 27, 2022.
That was three days after the invasion.
You said it was clear you had to leave why?
MIKHAIL ZYGAR: I felt like it was my moral obligation.
I knew that you cannot live in a fascist country.
And if your country invades another independent country, you have to fight against it.
I was like the first hours after the invasion.
I've written an open letter that was co-signed by Russia's prominent writers, filmmakers.
And then afterwards, it was reposted and signed by millions of Russians.
But that was obvious that we -- I could not stay inside the country because I might have been imprisoned immediately for spreading fakes about Russian Army.
JOHN YANG: Has anyone in your circle of journalistic friends or colleagues remained in Russia and what are you hearing from them?
MIKHAIL ZYGAR: Some of my friends are so bold and brave and crazy, I would say so they deliberately stay.
They know how much risk is that but still -- but they chose that super risky way to say Moscow.
They live expecting the police or someone -- some security forces to come to interrogate or to search in their apartments every single day, every single morning.
But they are still working, they are blogging, they are having their YouTube channels.
It's hard.
The country is really depressed.
Those journalists who continue working as independent journalist inside the country, they are very depressed with that illusionary atmosphere that nothing has changed.
JOHN YANG: And are they able to post their work on YouTube on the internet?
MIKHAIL ZYGAR: YouTube is still not blocked in Russia.
And you might know that YouTube has a very, really important role in Russia, because all the traditional TV channels are propaganda.
So YouTube is being watched as proper television by those Russians who oppose this war and YouTube is still working, and it's still very important.
JOHN YANG: Are you able to continue your work in exile?
MIKHAIL ZYGAR: Absolutely.
All Russian journalists who have fled continue working.
And I will say that we didn't have any political process for many years.
There are no opposition politicians in Russia.
So news media, independent journalists are probably the most important political figures, political activists in today's Russian society, because Russian society is everywhere now.
Berlin, Riga, Tel Aviv, Dubai, numerous city, many cities of America, there is the new huge wave of Russian emigration up to 1 million people who oppose Putin's war, and not -- there is nothing that unifies them, except for independent media.
JOHN YANG: Can you foresee any circumstances under which you would want to return to Russia?
MIKHAIL ZYGAR: I know that it's impossible until Vladimir Putin is still president of this country.
I hope that when he's not a life, the situation can get better.
I'm sure that the war against Ukraine will be stopped the moment when he's dead.
And that's absolutely 100 percent the condition of any possible future for Russia.
First, Ukraine should win this war.
And then we'll start to deal with our problems for me Russians that number one - - priority number one is the victory for Ukraine.
JOHN YANG: But you seem to be saying nothing's really going to change.
Nothing's going to get better until Vladimir Putin is out of the way.
MIKHAIL ZYGAR: I'm afraid so, yes.
And, you know, and I'm not really -- I'm not optimistic about his departure as well, because I'm not sure that when he's gone, the system would collapse.
As we know, after Stalin's death Soviet Union existed for almost 40 more years.
JOHN YANG: Mikhail Zygar, thank you very much.
MIKHAIL ZYGAR: Thank you.
