World Stage

>> IF IRAN MAKES A MISJUDGMENT, THEY'RE DEALING WITH A COUNTRY THAT HAS A LOT OF CAPABILITY AND HAS MADE A CONSCIOUS DECISION THROUGHOUT ITS EXISTENCE OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

IF THEY SEE A RISK TO THEIR IDENTITY, THEIR EXISTENCE, THEY'RE GOING TO ACT.

>> WE AS A NATION NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S AT STAKE AS WE PLAY AROUND WITH THE USE OF TORTURE OR WOULD APPOINT TO OFFICE INDIVIDUALS LIKE A DONALD TRUMP WHO BELIEVES IN TORTURE OR A GINA HASPEL, WHO'S PRACTICED IT.

♪ PUBLIC BROADCASTING AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

NOW, "IN PRINCIPLE" WITH MICHAEL MICHAEL AND AMY HOLMES.

MICHAEL: WELCOME TO "IN PRINCIPLE."

TODAY.

AMERICA ON THE WORLD STAGE.

SHOULD AMERICA CONTINUE TO EXERT ITS INFLUENCE GLOBALLY AND IF SO, WHAT ARE THE LIMITS OF POWER AND DOES AMERICA FIRST MEAN AMERICA ALONE?

AMY: LATER IN THE SHOW, ALBERTO MORA JOIFPBLES US.

AS THE NAVY'S FORMER GENERAL COUNSEL, HE OPPOSED ENHANCED SBROR GAYS TECHNIQUES USED BY THE UNITED STATES FOLLOWING SEPTEMBER 11.

MICHAEL: BUT KNOW -- NOW WE WELCOME IN DONALD RUSMS FEDS, THE FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFINITION UNDER TWO PRESIDENCIES.

HE HAS A NEW BOOK.

MR. SECRETARY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

RUMSFELD: THANK YOU.

AMY: WE HAVE A SUBMIT COMING UP BETWEEN THE PRESIDENTS OF THE UNITED STATES AND NORTH KOREA.

RUMSFELD: AMAZING.

AMY: RIGHT, WHAT'S YOUR REACTION?

RUMMED -- RESULTS FED: I HOME WE KNOW ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ADVISE HIM.

SOME ARE LEFT OVER FROM HIS FATHER AND PROBABLY SOME HIS GRANDFATHER.

AMY: SOME THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP'S BELLICOSE AND NICK NAMES, ROCKET MAN AND OTHERS ARE PUSHING KIM JONG-UN TO THE FABLE.

DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY?

RUMSFELD: I FON CONFESS, I DON'T KNOW.

I'VE NOT SEEN ANY INTELLIGENCE.

BUT IT IS AN UNUSUAL PRESIDENCY WE HAVE AND IN LARGE PART, HE'S PICKED GOOD PEOPLE.

IN LARGE PART, THE ONES I KNOW.

HE'S BEEN BOLD AND WILLING TO -- IT'S A RISK.

NOT JUST FOR KIM JONG-UN BUT A RISK FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AMY: WHAT ARE THOSE RISKS FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP?

RUMSFELD: I SUPPOSE ONE RISK IS PEOPLE'S HOPES ARE UP AND THEY CAN BE DISAPPOINTED BECAUSE THE GOAL OF A NEGOTIATION IS NOT TO GET A DEAL BUT GET A DEAL THAT'S IN YOUR COUNTRY'S INTEREST AND THAT'S DIFFERENT.

AND ANYONE CAN GET A DEAL IF YOU ACQUIESCE AND ACQUIESCE AND ACQUIESCE AND COMPROMISE SO THAT MEANS THAT THERE IS THE RISK OF NOT GETTING ANYTHING.

AND HAVING IT BE A DISAPPOINTMENT.

MICHAEL: AND THEN WHAT COMES NEXT, THAT'S THE QUESTION.

RUMSFELD: RIGHT.

THEIR ECONOMIC SITUATION IS SERIOUS AND IT ISN'T WITHIN THEIR CONTROL.

IT'S REALLY IN CHINA'S CONTROL AND IMCAN'T BELIEVE IT'S IN CHINA'S INTERESTS FOR NORTH KOREA TO COLLAPSE.

MICHAEL: CAN YOU SEE CONDITIONS THAT MIGHT LEAD TO WAR IN THAT CASE?

RUMSFELD: I THINK TALKING ABOUT THAT OR THINKING IT COULD HAPPEN , ONE HAS TO BE AWARE IT COULD HAPPEN.

I THINK IT'S VERY UNLIKELY.

I JUST DON'T -- WE KNOW IT'S NOT IN OUR INTERESTS.

AND IT'S CERTAINLY NOT IN THE INTERESTS OF OUR ALLEY IN SOUTH KOREA.

THE -- ALLY IN SOUTH KOREA.

I MEAN, THE AMOUNT OF FIREPOWER THAT'S IN PLACE DIRECTED AGAINST OUR ALLY IS SERIOUS AND IT'S NOT TO BE TAKEN LIGHTLY.

BUT I THINK THE -- I DON'T WANT TO SET IT ASIDE AND SAY WE DON'T HAVE TO KEEP IT IN MIND BUT I DON'T GIVE IT A HIGH PROBABILITIES AT ALL.

I GIVE IT A LOW PROBABILITY.

AMY: WHAT ABOUT A WAR BETWEEN IRAN AND ISRAEL NOW?

RUMSFELD: THAT'S A DIFFERENT THING.

I HAVE PROBABLY LESS CONFIDENCE THERE.

IF IRAN MAKES A MISJUDGMENTS, THEY'RE DEALING WITH A COUNTRY THAT HAS A LOT OF CAPABILITIES AND HAS MADE A CONSCIOUS DECISION THROUGHOUT ITS EXISTENCE OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SHOVE IT IN THE SEA, THAT DON'T BELIEVE IT HAS A RIGHT TO EXIST AND THEIR BEHAVIOR PATTERN IS THEY CAN'T MAKE A MISTAKE.

AND IF THEY SEE A RISK TO THEIR IDENTITY, THEIR EXISTENCE, THEIR -- THEY'RE GOING TO ACT.

AND THEY PROBABLY WOULD NOT ACT GENTLY.

NOR WOULD I IF I WERE IN THEIR SHOES.

AMY: AND DO YOU THINK PULLING OUT OF THE IRAN DEAL BROKERED BY PRESIDENT OBAMA INCREASES THE RISK OF CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST OR DECREASES IT?

RUMSFELD: I CAN'T JUDGE IT BUT I DON'T THINK IT INCREASES IT.

I THINK IT'S BEEN EXPECTED.

HE RAN AGAINST IT.

HE WAS DISAPPOINTSED IN IT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

IT DIDN'T COME AS A JOLT, A BIG SURPRISE.

MICHAEL: IN YOUR OPINION OFFICE OR SERVING THE COUNTRY DURING THE FALL OF SAIGON.

AND YOU HAD, COMING OUT OF THAT EXPERIENCE, THE VIETNAM SYNDROME, WHERE AMERICA WAS WAR WEARY, WAS HESITANT TO BE ENGAGED IN THE WORLD.

RUMSFELD: UNDERSTAND BLIP.

MICHAEL: DO YOU THINK WE'RE SEEING AN IRAQ SYNDROME RIGHT NOW, PARTICULARLY IN THE TRUMP ERA?

RUMSFELD: OH, I THINK ANY WAR IS SO TERRIBLE.

DO I THINK THAT THERE IS A VERY STRONG DISINCLINATION FOR WAR ON THE PART OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE?

DO YOU THINK -- DO I THINK IT'S STRONG ENOUGH THAT NO MORE VIETNAMS, THAT POINT YOU MAKE -- DO I THINK IT'S STRONG ENOUGH THAT IT WILL PRESENTS US AS WEAK?

UH, I THINK IT WAS EISENHOWER WHO USED THE PHRASE PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH AND I BELIEVE THAT.

I BELIEVE THAT IT IS STRENGTH THAT IS THE GUARANTOR OF PEACE.

IT'S NOT WEAKNESS.

AND IT'S NOT A BEHAVIOR PATTERN THAT SUGGESTS TO PEOPLE THAT THEY CAN HAVE THINGS ON THE CHEAP.

MICHAEL: WHAT ARE THE LESSONS THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BRING OUTS OF THE IRAQ EXPERIENCE IN RUMSFELD: I THINK IT'S HELPFUL TO RELEARN WHAT WE'VE LEARNED IN ANY CONFLICT.

THAT THEY'RE TERRIBLE THINGS, THAT PEOPLE DIE AND PEOPLE ARE WOUNDED, AND GOD BLESS THOSE WHO ARE WILLING TO PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE.

WE OWE THEM A GREAT DEAL.

I THINK THAT THAT'S THE LESSON OF ANY WAR IS TRY TO AVOID IT.

MAKE -- AND WEIGH THOSE THINGS VERY CAREFULLY.

I MEAN, THE RISK OF UNCONVENTIONAL WEAPONS IS A SERIOUS ONE.

MICHAEL: WE'RE STILL DEALING WITH THE LEGACY OF THE PAST IN SOME AREAS, INCLUDING A NEW C.I.A.

DIRECTOR, GINA HASPEL, WHO WAS INVOLVED IN ENHANCED INTERROGATION.

RUMSFELD: YES.

MICHAEL: DO YOU THINK THAT'S TOO TOXIC FOR HER TO LEAD THE AGENCY?

RUMSFELD: I THINK, FROM WHAT I'VE READ OF HER, SHE LOOKS TO BE A PERSON WHO HAS PUNCHED ALL THE TICKETS ALL THE WAY UP AND OUGHT TO BE A VERY FINE AND COMPETENT HELD OF THE AGENCY.

INDEED -- HEAD OF THE AGENCY.

INDEED THAT BACKGROUND AND HER UNDERSTANDING AND KNOWLEDGE OF IT MIGHT EVEN MAKE HER MORE SENSITIVE TO IT.

MICHAEL: DO YOU THINK ENHANCED INTERROGATION WOULD MAKE A COMEBACK AT THAT MOMENT?

AMY: OR SHOULD?

RUMSFELD: I HAVE NO IDEA.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

IF THERE'S A NUCLEAR BOMB IN NEW YORK CITY AND YOU KNOW IT'S GOING TO GO OFF IN THE NEXT 10 DAYS AND YOU KNOW YOU HAVE THE PERSON WHO DID IT.

AMY: WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN NEXT?

RUMSFELD: YEAH, THAT'S FOR OUR SOCIETY AND OUR LEADERSHIP AND GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME.

AMY: WHAT DO YOU THINK?

DO YOU THINK IT'S ALL RIGHT IF WE NEED TO, WE'RE GOING TO DO SLEEP DEPRIVATION?

RUMSFELD: THERE CERTAINLY ARE THINGS ONE CAN DO IN INTERROGATION THAT ARE WITHIN THE CURRENT LAW AND THERE MAY BE THINGS THAT THE CURRENT LAW WOULD BE ADJUSTED TO.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THERE WAS CRITICISM FOR IS WHAT YOU SAID, SLEEP DEPRIVATION.

AMY: RIGHT.

RUMSFELD: ANOTHER THING WAS HAVING SOMEONE STAND UP FOR A LONG TIME.

AMY: RIGHT.

RUMSFELD: NEITHER OF WHICH ENDS UP IN ANY WAY DAMAGING THE INDIVIDUAL, ACCORDING TO THE EXPERIENCE THAT THE AGENCIES HAVE AS I UNDERSTAND IT.

I DON'T KNOW.

AMY: SO THAT SEEMS REASONABLE TO YOU?

RUMSFELD: STANDING UP LONGER THAN YOU'D PROSECUTOR?

NOT ALLOWING SOMEONE TO SLEEP.

WHAT DO THEY DO, TURN ON LOUD MUSIC OR SOMETHING?

AMY: LOUD MUSIC, LIGHT ON.

RUMSFELD: I DON'T LIKE LOUD MUSIC AT ALL.

[LAUGHTER] AMY: WELL, MAYBE JUSTIN BIEBER.

ARE THOSE REASONABLE STEPS TO TAKE?

RUMSFELD: I'VE NEVER RUN THE AGENCY.

I'VE RUN THE PENTAGON AND THOSE ARE NOT THINGS THAT THE PENTAGON IS ENGAGED IN OR IS SKILLED IN OR TRAINED FOR.

MICHAEL: I KNOW HOW PRESIDENTS WOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE UNDER THOSE SCENARIOS.

YOU'D BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ENHAJESED SBROR GAYS WHICH YOU SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR BUT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEPTHS OF 100,000 PEOPLE, THAT WOULD BE A DIFFERENT LEVEL OF RESPONSIBILITY.

RUMSFELD: EXACTLY.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE ACTIVITIES OF THE AGENCY HAD BEEN APPROVED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND HAD BEEN APPROVED BY THE PRESIDENT.

AMY: YES.

RUMSFELD: SO AT THAT STAGE, WHAT THEY DID WAS NOT ILLEGAL.

NOW, THE LAW HAS BEEN CHANGED, AS I UNDERSTAND IT.

I'VE BEEN OUT OF GOVERNMENT FOR 10 YEARS.

AMY: SECRETARY RUMSFELD, YOU SERVED AS CHIEF OF STAFF FOR PRESIDENT FORD DURING A TIME OF TREMENDOUS TRAUMA FOR THE COUNTRY.

PRESIDENT NIXON RESIGNING, VIETNAM, ASTRONOMICAL INFLATION.

DO YOU SEE ANY PARALLELS BETWEEN THAT EXPERIENCE GOING IN AND AS YOU SAY, WITHOUT A CON INSTEAD OF OWENSY, BIG POLICY TEAM, MR. FORD NOT NECESSARILY HAVING EXPERIENCE WITH NATIONAL AFFIRMS.

DO YOU SEE ANY PARALLELS WITH THAT NOW?

RUMSFELD: THERE ARE SOME LEGISLATORS.

THIS IS A CHALLENGING TIME ALSO.

AMY: DO YOU SEE ANY COMMON Y'ALLTIES?

RUMSFELD: SURE, A SENIOR OFFICIAL'S JOB IS TO PICK GOOD PEOPLE.

AMY: HAVE THEY DONE THAT?

RUMSFELD: I THINK THEY HAVE.

I THINK MIKE PENCE WAS A GOOD CHOICE FOR VICE PRESIDENT.

I THINK THE SUPREME COURT DECISION WAS A GOOD ONE.

I LOOK AT THE CAB NET.

MATTIS.

I OBVIOUSLY LOOK AT THE PENTAGON AND THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AND I THINK MATTIS IS A SUE PUSH CHOICE.

MICHAEL: AND YOU WROTE A FASCINATING BOOK "WHEN THE CENTERS HELD" ABOUT PRESIDENT FORMED.

WHAT VIRTUES DID HE HAVE THAT HELPED HEAL A DIVIDED NATION?

RUMSFELD: BASIC HUMAN DECENCY.

HE LIKED PEOPLE.

HE HAD MID WESTERN VALUES.

HE WAS A KIND PERSON AND CARED ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE AND UNDERSTOOD PEOPLE WELL.

IT WAS INTERESTING.

I MEAN, IN WASHINGTON, D.C., SOME PEOPLE HAVE SHARP ELBOWS AND HAVE TO SAY THINGS THAT ARE OFF THE EDGE A LITTLE BIT.

THAT WAS NOT HIS THING.

SOME PEOPLE ARE CAUTIOUS AROUND OTHERS.

HE DID NOT HAVE THAT QUALITY OF MAKING PEOPLE CAUTIOUS.

HE -- YOU FELT LIKE HE WAS LEANING FORWARD.

MICHAEL: IT WAS A CONTRAST TO HIS PREDECESSOR, OBVIOUSLY.

RUMSFELD: VERY DIFFERENT FROM RICHARD NIXON, WHO SELECTED HIM AS VICE PRESIDENT.

YOU'RE RIGHT.

RUMSFELD CLOON:WHY HAS PRESIDENT FORD'S REPUTATION GROWN WHILE HE WAS IN OFFICE?

RUMSFELD: HE WAS THERE A BRIEF TIME.

800-SOME-ODD DAYS, SUPPOSE.

HE WAS BOOK ENDED BY NIXON AND REAGAN.

PRETTY SIZABLE FIGURES.

AND HE DIDN'T SEEK FAME OR CREDIT.

I THINK IT WAS HIS DEMEANOR.

HE NEVER REALLY ASKED FOR, SOUGHT OR DID THE THINGS THAT WOULD LEADED TO LAURELS GIVEN TO HIM.

HE WAS A TEAM LEADER, NOT AN INDIVIDUAL STAR.

WHEN WE HAD THE FIRST PRESIDENT RESIGN, HE CAME IN AND PEOPLE FELT GOOD ABOUT HIM BECAUSE HE WAS A GOOD HUMAN BEING.

MICHAEL: YOU'VE KNOWN SO MANY LEADERS OVER THE YEARS.

WHO DO YOU THINK ARE THE TRUE STATESMEN OF OUR TIME?

RUMSFELD: WHEN THEY'RE ALIVE, THEY TEND NOT TO BE REVERED.

[LAUGHTER] WE SEE ALL THE FLAWS AND WARTS AND BLEM IRKS ON PEOPLE AND WE HAVE A WAY OF HIGHLIGHTING THEM IN OUR POLITICAL PROCESS AND IN THE MEDIA PROCESS.

WE TEND TO FOCUS MORE ON THE FLAWS THAN THE OTHER.

RIGHT THIS MINUTE, WHO ARE THEY?

AMY: WHO DO YOU THINK HISTORY WILL TREAT WELL?

RUMSFELD: OH, MY GOODNESS, I'LL BE GONE.

I COULD SAY ANYTHING I WANTED AND IT WOULDN'T MATTER.

I WON'T BE AROUND TO SEE IT.

AT 85 YEARS OLD.

MICHAEL: MR. SECRETARY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US, FOR A GREAT DISCUSSION.

RUMSFELD: THANK YOU, I ENJOYED IT.

GOOD TO BE UP WITH.

THANK YOU.

AMY: HOW DO AMERICANS FEEL ABOUT THE U.S.

POSITION IN THE WORLD.

45% SAY THEY'RE SATISFIED, A 13-YEAR HIGH.

IT'S ALSO A 13-POINT INCREASE FROM THE YEAR BEFORE, JUST AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK OFFICE.

AND HERE TO TELL US MORE ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF CHECKS AND BALANCES WHEN INFLUENCING POWER ABROAD IS ALBERTO MORA FROM.

2001 TO 2006, HE WAS THE NAVY'S GENERAL COUNSEL AND TODAY CONDUCTS RESEARCH ON FOREIGN RIGHTS AND HUMAN POLICIES ISSUES AT HARVARD'S KENNEDY SCHOOL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

WE PEERKT -- APPRECIATE IT.

MORA: THANK YOU SOSH.

HOW DID YOUR OWN UPBRINGING AND MICHAEL: BACKGROUND AND EXPERIENCE AFFECT YOUR PASSION ON TORTURE AND CRUELTY?

MORA: SO, I WAS BORN IN BOSTON, BUT THE SON OF A CUBAN FATHER AND HUNGARIAN MOTHER.

AND THE EARLIEST MEMORY I CAN DATE, WOULD BE SITTING IN THE FLOOR OF MY PARENTS' ROOM IN HAVANA, CUBA, WHILE MY MOTHER WAS MAKING UP HER BED.

SO SHE WAS GOING AROUND TIDYING UP THE CORNERS AND TUCKING IN THE SHEETS AND PLUMPING THE PILLOWS.

THE RADIO WAS PLAYING IN THE BACKGROUND AND THE RADIO WAS RELAYING NEWS OF THE SOVIETS' CRUSHING OF THE HUNGARIAN REVOLUTION.

SO THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN OCTOBER, NOVEMBER 1956.

AND I WAS I THINK PROBABLY IN DIAPERS, IM NOT QUITE SURE.

I MIGHTVE BEEN.

AND THEN I LOOKED AT MOTHER WHO WAS ACTING NORMALLY, BUT THEN WHEN I LOOKED AT HER FACE, TEARS WERE POURING DOWN HER FACE.

SO SHE WAS SILENTLY GOING ABOUT THE JOB OF MAKING A ROOM WHILE SHE WAS WEEPING SILENTLY.

AND WAS WEEPING SILENTLY AT HER COUNTRY AND THE LOSS OF DEMOCRACY AND THE LOSS OF POTENTIAL FREEDOM THAT THE HUNGARIAN REVOLUTION HAD PROMISED.

LATER I WOULD SEE MY FATHER ON HIS KNEES IN A SMALL RENTED APARTMENT IN MIAMI AFTER WE COME OVER BECAUSE HE COULD NOT BE AT HIS DYING FATHERS BEDSIDE BECAUSE HE HAD BEEN BRANDED AN ENEMY OF THE REVOLUTION BY THE CUBAN REGIME.

SO, FROM AN EARLY AGE, I SAW THE IMPACT OF THE LOSS OF FREEDOM, OF LACK OF THE RULE OF LAW, THE USE OF CRUELTY, BOTH PURPOSEFUL AND INCIDENTAL AGAINST INDIVIDUALS.

I LATER LATER SAW THIS GROWING NEW MISSISSIPPI WHERE THE SWIMMING POOLS WERE STILL CLOSED.

THE RESTROOMS WERE RESTRICTED TO WHITES AND SO FORTH.

AND THE BLACKS IN MISSISSIPPI EVERY DAY WERE TREATED WITH DISRESPECT BY THE AUTHORITIES OF THE STATE.

SO OVER THE COURSE OF MY LIFE, I'VE HAD REASON TO SEE THE IMPORTANCE OF HUMAN DIGNITY, THE -- SEE MECHANISMS IN WHICH HUMAN DIGNITY CAN BE VIOLATED.

INDIVIDUALS AND FAMILIES DAMAGED AND HURT SO I'VE BECOME A STRONG SUPPORTER OF THE PROMISE OF AMERICA AND THOSE DECISIONS AND INSTITUTIONS AND LAWS THAT MAKE AMERICA WHAT IT IS TODAY BUT THAT ARE THREATENED.

THEY'RE THREATENED BY THE NOTION SUCH AS THE ONE THAT TORTURE MIGHT BE ACCEPTABLE AND COMP ACCOMPLISHMENTRY TO THE AMERICAN SYSTEM.

-- COMPLEMENTARY TO THE AMERICAN SYSTEM.

SO THIS IS WHY I SPEAK ABOUT ISSUES LIKE TORTURE AND FEEL THAT WE AS A NATION NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WERE -- WHATS AT STAKE AS WE PLAY AROUND WITH THE USE OF TORTURE OR WOULD APPOINT AN OFFICE, INDIVIDUALS LIKE A DONALD TRUMP WHO BELIEVES IN TORTURE, OR GINA HASPEL WHOS PRACTICED IT, TO POSITIONS OF RESPONSIBILITY.

DO YOU THINK ITS POSSIBLE WELL MICHAEL: SEE A RETURN TO THOSE POLICIES UNDER THE TRUMP BUSH ADMINISTRATION AS WELL, SO IT WAS CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT ONE COULDNT TORTURE.

AND THERE WAS NO CATEGORY -- CATEGORICALLY, THERES NO EXCUSE R THE USE OF TORTURE WITHIN AMERICAN LAW AND INTERNATIONAL W. BUT WE HAVE A PRO-TORTURE PRESIDENT.

AND IF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S DESCENT INTO TORTURE TEACHES US ANYTHING, IT IS THAT LAWS ARE NOT SUFFICIENT TO PROTECT THE COUNTRY AGAINST THE PROHIBITED BEHAVIOR.

IF THE LEADERSHIP OF THE COUNTRY IS DETERMINED TO CIRCUMVENT OR VIOLATE THE LAW.

AND WE HAVE TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT TRUMP'S TENDENCY TO ORDER THAT AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE.

AMY: SO YOU HAVE BEEN A VERY VOCAL AND STRINGENT OPPONENT TO ENHANCED INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES A PARTICULARLY UNDER THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION CONDUCTED BY THE C.I.A.

WHAT DID WE GAIN FROM THOSE TECHNIQUES?

MORA: I DON'T THINK WE GAINED MUCH.

THE U.S.

TRADITION NOT TO EMPLOY TORTURE DURING WARTIME STARTED WITH GEORGE WASHINGTON, LITERALLY.

GEORGE WASHINGTON, IN THE FIRST EXISTENTIAL CONFLICT OF THE UNITED STATES, GAVE ORDERS, STRICT ORDERS, TO THE REVOLUTIONARY ARMY NOT TO ABUSE THE BRITISH PRISONERS, WHICH THEY HAD.

THE SECOND EXISTENTIAL CONFLICT WAS THE CIVIL WAR.

ABRAHAM LINCOLN PERSONALLY PROHIBITED THE USE OF TORTURE IN WHAT HE PROMULGATED THE LIBRA CODE, WHICH WAS THE FOUNDATION FOR THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS IN 1864.

SO YOU HAD TWO OF OUR GREATEST PRESIDENTS IN THE MOMENTS OF GREATEST THREAT TO THE COUNTRY DEFINING THE AMERICAN CHARACTER AS BEING ONE INIMICAL TO THE USE OF TORTURE.

WHEN WE APPLY TORTURE AGAINST THESE INDIVIDUALS, I THINK WE DAMAGE THE INSTITUTIONS THAT WE CARE ABOUTPEOPLE AND ARE CENTRAL TO OUR DEMOCRACY.

I THINK WE DAMAGED OUR ABILITY TO FIGHT THE WAR ON TERROR EFFECTIVELY WITH THE BROADEST POSSIBLE ALLIANCE.

WE DAMAGED THE FRAMEWORK OF RELATIONSHIPS WITH OUR ALLIES WHO WERE WE NEED TO FIGHT THE WAR EFFECTIVELY.

WE DAMAGED THE ARCHITECTURE OF HUMAN RIGHTS THAT WE SPENT MORE THAN 60 YEARS TRYING TO CONSTRUCT.

WEVE DAMAGED THE FABRIC OF INTERNATIONAL LAW IN A NUMBER OF WAYS, INCLUDING BY DAMAGING THE PRINCIPAL ACCOUNTABILITY FOR VIOLATIONS OF LAW.

AND WE'VE DAMAGED OUR SUBPOENA CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER, WHICH DEPENDS ON THE PRINCIPLE THAT EVERY INDIVIDUAL, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, HAS A NUMBER OF RIGHTS THAT ARE INEVITABLE AND PERSONAL TO HIM OR HER, INCLUDING THE RIGHT TO BE FREE FROM CRUELTY.

LET ME GET AT IT A LITTLE -- MICHAEL: LET ME GET AT AT IT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT WAY.

WE'VE JUST CAPTURED FIVE ISIS LEADERS.

TO GET INFORMATION FROM THEM?

URGENT INFORMATION.

MORA: SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE EFFECT OF EFFECTS OF ENHANCED INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT YOU TRY TO DO IS TO RECRUIT INDIVIDUALS TO COOPERATE WITH YOU TO GIVE INFORMATION BECAUSE THEY WANT TO, NOT SO MUCH AS TO BEAT IT OUT OF THEM BECAUSE THAT THE PRODUCES LESS RELIABLE INFORMATION.

SO, IF YOU WILL ASK INTERROGATION PROFESSIONALS FORE 9/11, AFTER 9/11, AND DAY, ALMOST THE -- THE VAST MAJORITY WILL TELL THAT YOU IT'S WELL-KNOWN, IT HAS BEEN KNOWN FOR DECADES.

BUT RELATIONSHIP-BASED INTERROGATION TRAINING IS A BETTER WAY OF PROCEEDING BECAUSE IT YIELDS HIGHER QUALITY INFORMATION AND MORE OF IT THAN THE USE OF BRUTALITY.

SO THERE'S A MYTH THAT TORTURE IS EFFECTIVE IN PRODUCING RELIABLE INFORMATION QUICKLY.

THAT'S NOT TRUE.

GINA HASPEL, WAS INVOLVED IN THESE PROGRAMS, VERY DEEPLY INVOLVED.

YEAH.

MICHAEL: WHAT DO YOU THINK THE SYMBOLISM OF HAVING HER IN THAT JOB WOULD BE?

MORA: THE SYMBOLISM IS THAT THE UNITED STATES WILL TORTURE WHEN IT SUITS THE COUNTRY AND WILL NOT HOLD ANYBODY ACCOUNTABLE FOR HAVING CREATED A WAR CRIME AND VIOLATED INTERNATIONAL LAW.

AMY: MR. MORA, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO LEON PANETTA, FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AND HEAD OF THE C.I.A., AND JOHN BRENNAN, FORMER HEAD OF THE C.I.A., WHO BOTH SAID WHEN OSAMA BIN LADEN WAS KILLED THAT INFORMATION THAT WAS GLEANED THROUGH THE USE OF ENHANCED INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES BY THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATION DID IN FACT PLAY A ROLE IN BEING ABLE TO SUCCEED IN THAT MISSION?

MORA: I'VE HEARD THEM SAY THAT.

I'VE ALSO READ THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE REPORT, WHICH LOOKED AT THE 20 MAJOR CLAIMS OF SUCCESS AND EFFECTIVENESS BY THE C.I.A.

AND THE USE OF ENHANCED INTERROGATION, AND I'M IMPRESSED ALSO BY THE SO ARE MR. PANETTA AND MR. BRENNAN BEING DECEPTIVE?

MORA: NO, I THINK -- I THINK -- FIRST OF ALL, THE C.I.A.

SOLD THAT ENHANCED INTERROGATION PROGRAM TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE UNDER CLAIMS OF UNIQUE EFFECTIVENESS.

AND THEN THROUGHOUT THE HISTORY OF THE PROGRAM, THEY MADE CLAIMS OF SUCCESS AND EFFECTIVENESS USING AND CITED A NUMBER OF EXAMPLES.

ALMOST ALL THOSE EXAMPLES HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO BE INCORRECT OR FALSE.

MICHAEL: ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS THE C.I.A.

MADE IS THAT THE PEOPLE THEY WERE TORTURING WERE NOT NORMAL INDIVIDUALS AND NEEDED EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES.

MORA: I DON'T AGREE.

AN INDIVIDUAL THAT HAD NO RELATIONSHIP TO THE CRIMES, HE WAS TORTURED.

MAHER ARAR WAS A CANADIAN BUSINESSMAN WHO WAS PICKED UP IN KENNEDY AIRPORT AND THEN RENDERED BY THE C.I.A.

TO SYRIA, OF ALL OF ALL PLACES, WHERE HE WAS TORTURED, THEN RELEASED.

INDIVIDUAL HAD NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER WITH TERRORISM OR ANY KIND OF INAPPROPRIATE ACTIVITY, T HE WAS TORTURED.

NOW, THEN YOU HAVE THE OTHER INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE THE HIGHLY IDEOLOGICAL ONES WHO WERE THE ARCHITECTS OF 9/11 AND THE COLE BOMBING, TRULY BAD INDIVIDUALS.

THESE ARE INDIVIDUAL, BY THE WAY, THAT KILLED, AS MY BOSS AT THE NAVY USED TO SAY, 3,000 AMERICANS ONLY BECAUSE THEY COULDNT FIGURE HOW TO KILL 30,000 AMERICANS.

THATS A STATEMENT OF FACT, I THINK, WITH RESPECT TO SOME OF THESE INDIVIDUALS.

THEYRE TRULY BAD GUYS.

BUT NONETHELESS, OUR COUNTRY IS A COUNTRY OF LAWS.

THIS IS WHAT WERE ALL ABOUT.

WE -- A COUNTRY OF RIGHTS.

THIS IS WHAT WERE FOUNDED ON.

OUR MISSION IN LIFE IS TO BUILD A BETTER SOCIETY AND HELP BUILD A BETTER WORLD.

IF WE COULD TORTURE SOME OF THESE HIGHLY IDEOLOGICAL IMINALS THE WAY WE DID, ITS ONLY BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE INALIENABLE RIGHT TO BE FREE FROM CRUELTY.

AND IF THATS TRUE THEN NEITHER YOU, NOR YOU, NOR I HAVE THAT RIGHT EITHER BECAUSE IT BECOMES A MATTER OF ANY GOVERNMENT DECIDING WHEN TO APPLY CRUELTY AND UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES AND UNDER WHAT CRITERIA.

MICHAEL: WHAT ARE WE TRYING TO PROTECT?

MORA: LIVES AND OUR FREEDOMS AND BY USING TORTURE, YOU DAMAGE THE FREEDOM OF THE AMERICAN LEGAL SYSTEM AND DAMAGE THE VALUES THAT UNDERGIRD IT.

TORTURE IS, NIMICAL TO OUR VALUES.

MICHAEL: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR A FASCINATING DISCUSSION.

AMY: THANK YOU.

MICHAEL: THAT'S IT FOR "IN PRINCIPLE."

AMY: FOLLOW MORE "IN PRINCIPLE" ON LINE OR FOLLOW US ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

UNTIL NEXT TIME, I'M AMY HOLMES.

MICHAEL: I'M MICHAEL GERSON.

GOODBYE.

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