>> THIS SEGMENT IS PART OF OUR

CHASING THE DREAM INITIATIVE ON

POVERTY AND OPPORTUNITY IN

AMERICA.

GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO

"METROFOCUS."

I'M JACK FORD.

TONIGHT THE QUESTION FOR YOU,

HAVE YOU STOPPED USING CASH TO

BUY THINGS?

MORE AND MORE PEOPLE AROUND THE

COUNTRY HAVE AND ARE NOW JUST

USING CREDIT OR DEBIT CARDS WHEN

PURCHASING GOODS.

ALONG WITH PEOPLE GOING

CASHLESS, SO ARE SOME

BUSINESSES.

BUT WHAT IF YOU DON'T HAVE A

CREDIT OR DEBIT CARD?

WHAT IF YOU'RE UNDERBANKED, AS

25% OF NEW YORKERS ARE?

WHAT IF YOU'RE UNDOCUMENTED?

WHAT IF YOU'RE HOMELESS?

WHAT IF YOU JUST LIKE TO USE

CASH?

WHEN YOU CONSIDER A CASHLESS

SOCIETY, ARE WE ALSO LOOKING AT

IN SOME WAYS A BIASED ONE?

BRONX COUNCILMEMBER RICHIE

TORRES HAS STRONG OPINIONS ON

THE ISSUE.

HE IS TACKLING IT HEAD-ON AND HE

JOINS US WITH THAT.

IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> IT'S AN HONOR TO BE HERE.

>> YOU SAID I WALKED INTO A

STORE IN NEW YORK.

I'D LIKE TO USE CASH RATHER THAN

CARDS FOR NORMAL LUNCH, THAT

TYPE OF THING.

AND I WALKED IN, GOT SOME LUNCH

AND GOT TO THE COUNTER AND SAID

WE DON'T TAKE CASH.

AND I SAID REALLY?

WE DON'T TAKE CASH?

SO LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT

WHY YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT

NOTION OF CASHLESS BUSINESSES.

>> WELL, MOST PEOPLE HAVE THE

SAME PUZZLED REACTION THAT YOU

DO.

WHEN YOU OPEN A DOLLAR BILL, IT

READS "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER

FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC OR

PRIVATE".

>> RIGHT.

>> IF I HAVE CASH, WHICH THE

LEGITIMATE UNIVERSALLY

RECOGNIZED CURRENCY OF THE

UNITED STATES, ON WHAT BASIS CAN

A BUSINESS DENY ME THE ABILITY

TO USE CASH TO PURCHASE FOOD,

SHELTER, AND CLOTHING, BUT

INCREASINGLY IN NEW YORK CITY WE

HAVE A RISING TIDE OF WHAT IS

KNOWN AS CASHLESS BUSINESSES

THAT INSIST ON CREDIT ONLY AND

THAT REFUSE TO ACCEPT CASH.

AND MY CONCERN IS EVEN IF THE

POLICY APPEARS TO BE NEUTRAL ON

THE SURFACE, IT CAN HAVE AN

EXCLUSIONARY EFFECT ON THE MOST

VULNERABLE NEW YORKER,

PARTICULARLY THE UNDERBANKED

WHICH IS 25% OF OUR POPULATION.

>> I'LL TALK ABOUT THAT IN A

SECOND.

BUT GIVE US A SENSE OF CONTEXT

FOR THE ISSUE.

WHAT ARE THE REASONS THAT HAVE

BEEN OFFERED BY BUSINESSES WHEN

THEY SAY ALL RIGHT, WE'RE GOING

TO GO CASHLESS.

WE'RE NOW JUST GOING TO DO BASED

ON CREDIT CARDS OR DIGITAL BILL?

>> THE REASONS CAN VARY.

SOME WILL CLAIM EFFICIENCY.

OTHERS WILL CLAIM CLEANLINESS.

AND THEN THERE SEEMS TO BE A

MISCONCEPTION AMONG SOME

BUSINESS OWNERS THAT EVERYONE

HAS ACCESS TO CREDIT.

>> YEAH.

>> WHEN IN FACT 25% OF NEW

YORKERS ARE UNDERBANKED, AND

IT'S DISPROPORTIONATELY TRUE IN

COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

>> WHEN WE SAY UNDERBANKED, WHAT

DOES THAT MEAN?

>> THERE IS A LACK OF BANKS

THROUGHOUT NEW YORK CITY,

PARTICULARLY THE LOW INCOME

NEIGHBORHOODS.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF NEW

YORKERS THAT HAVE NO CREDIT

RATING OR TOO POOR CREDIT RATING

TO QUALIFY FOR CREDIT.

IF YOU HAVE NO ACCESS TO CREDIT,

YOU HAVE NO MEANS TO PURCHASING

GOODS AND SERVICES IN A CASHLESS

SOCIETY.

>> YOU MIGHT HAVE THE MONEY IN

YOUR POCKET TO DO IT.

>> YEAH.

>> YOUR WAGES MIGHT BE

SUFFICIENT TO ALLOW YOU TO GO TO

A GROCERY STORE AND BUY AND TAKE

CARE OF YOUR FAMILY, KEEP FOOD

ON THE TABLE, A ROOF OVER YOUR

HEAD, BUT IF YOU DON'T LIVE IN

THE CREDIT CARD WORLD, THEN SOME

OF THESE BUSINESSES ARE SAYING

TO YOU CAN'T DO BUSINESS WITH

US?

>> AND YOU'RE EFFECTIVELY

EXCLUDED.

IT'S FAIR GAME IN A CAPITALIST

SOCIETY TO DISCRIMINATE ON

PRICE.

BUT I WOULD REGARD IT AS UNFAIR

TO DISCRIMINATE BASED ON METHOD

OF PAYMENT.

>> DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANY

INTENTIONAL DISCRIMINATION GOING

ON HERE WITH THESE DECISIONS BY

BUSINESSES TO GO CASHLESS, THAT

THEY'RE TRYING TO LIMIT IN SOME

WAY THE CLASSES OR THE TYPES OF

CUSTOMERS THAT ARE COMING INTO

THEIR STORES?

>> I THINK AS A GENERAL MATTER,

IT TENDS TO BE DISCRIMINATION IN

EFFECT.

BUT I SUSPECT THERE ARE SOME

BUSINESSES THAT KNOWINGLY ADOPT

THESE POLICIES KNOWING THAT IT

WILL FILTER OUT A CERTAIN

CLIENTELE FROM THEIR BUSINESS.

>> IF YOU LOOK AT IT, AND I

MENTIONED TO YOU, I JUST HAPPEN

THAN NOT, I'VE SEEN IN SOME OF

THE STORIES ABOUT THIS SOME

PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING, LOOK, I

DO THIS AS A BUDGET MECHANISM

FOR ME TO KEEP MYSELF ON BUDGET.

THERE ARE STUDIES THAT HAVE

SHOWN THAT PEOPLE WILL SPEND

MORE WHEN THEY'RE USING A CARD

THAN THEY WILL IF THEY'RE TAKING

CASH OUT OF A WALLET.

SO YOU HAVE PEOPLE SAYING IT'S A

BUDGET TOOL FOR ME.

OTHER PEOPLE SAYING ESSENTIALLY,

IT KEEPS THEM FROM OVERSPENDING,

EVEN THOUGH THEY COULD, THEY

COULD AFFORD IT IF THEY WANT TO.

AND THEN OTHER PEOPLE ALSO SAY,

AND BY THE WAY, THIS IS -- SETS

UP A SCENARIO WHERE THE

BUSINESSES CAN BE MAKING MORE

MONEY TO THEIR BOTTOM LINE.

>> YEAH.

>> SO HOW DO WE RECONCILE THOSE

TWO?

>> I WOULD ARGUE THAT WHATEVER

EFFICIENCY GAINS COME FROM A

CASHLESS BUSINESS IS OUTWEIGHED

BY TWO CONSIDERATIONS.

FIRST IS PRIVACY.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO PREFER CASH

FOR REASONS RELATING TO PRIVACY,

BECAUSE IT DOES NOT INVOLVE THE

SHARING OF THEIR PERSONAL

INFORMATION.

CREDIT CARDS HAVE HUGE

QUANTITIES OF INFORMATION ABOUT

OUR LOCATIONS, OUR WHEREABOUTS

BECAUSE WE'RE CONSTANTLY ENGAGED

IN CREDIT TRANSACTIONS.

AND THERE ARE MANY NEW YORKERS

WHO PREFER TO USE CASH BECAUSE

IT'S MUCH MORE PROTECTIVE OF

THEIR PRIVACY.

SECOND IS CIVIL RIGHTS.

SINCE 1965 THERE HAS BEEN A

RECOGNITION THAT EVEN PRIVATE

BUSINESSES ARE PUBLIC

ACCOMMODATION AND HAVE AN

OBLIGATION TO TREAT ALL OF THEIR

CUSTOMERS EQUALLY, REGARDLESS OF

WHETHER YOU PAY BY CREDIT OR BY

CASH.

SO HOPEFULLY MY BILL IS ABOUT

AFFIRMING THE PRINCIPLE OF

EQUALITY IN THE MARKETPLACE.

>> TELL ME WHAT THE BILL WOULD

SAY AND THEN LET'S TALK ABOUT

WHAT KIND OF SUPPORT YOU HAVE

FOR IT.

>> THE BILL WOULD REQUIRE EVERY

RETAIL AND FOOD ESTABLISHMENT TO

ACCEPT CASH, RIGHT.

CREDIT SHOULD BE AND CAN BE ONE

OPTION AMONG MANY, BUT IT SHOULD

NEVER BE THE SOLE OPTION BECAUSE

IT HAS AN EXCLUSIONARY EFFECT ON

UNDERBANKED AND VULNERABLE NEW

YORKERS.

SO YOU WOULD BE REQUIRED TO

ACCEPT CASH.

>> AND WHAT SORT OF SUPPORT ARE

YOU GETTING ON BOTH SIDES OF THE

AISLE?

>> THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN

OVERWHELMINGLY FAVORABLE.

I HAVE THE SUPPORT -- WE SEEM TO

HAVE THE TENTATIVE SUPPORT OF

THE MAYOR WHO HAVE VOICED

SUPPORT FOR THE CONCEPT OF

BANNING CASHLESS BUSINESSES.

I HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE CHAIR

OF THE COMMITTEE ON CONSUMER

AFFAIRS WHICH WILL HEAR THE BILL

IN FEBRUARY.

SO THE SUPPORT HAS LARGELY BEEN

FAVORABLE.

>> WHAT WOULD BE THE TIME

SCHEDULE, THEN, FOR THIS TO GET

DONE?

>> SO IF WE WERE ABLE TO SECURE

HEARING IN FEBRUARY AS I SUSPECT

WE WILL, THEN WE CAN GET THE

BILL ENACTED BY MID- TO LATE

NEXT YEAR.

>> WE'LL HAVE YOU COME BECOME

AND TALK ABOUT THAT.

BUT I CAN'T HAVE YOU HERE

WITHOUT BRINGING UP THE TOPIC

THAT WE TALK ABOUT SO OFTEN

HERE.

BASICALLY, GIVE US AN UPDATE.

WHAT'S GOING ON?

>> LOOK, THERE HAS BEEN SOME

BREAKTHROUGHS.

THE GENERAL MANAGER AND THE NEW

CHAIRPERSON WERE ABLE TO STRIKE

AN AGREEMENT WITH THE TEAMSTERS

WHICH REPRESENTS THE MAJORITY OF

THE EMPLOYEES WHICH WOULD --

WHICH WOULD REQUIRE THE

EMPLOYEES TO WORK EARLIER ON

WEEKENDS.

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 50 YEARS

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE CARETAKERS

EARLY IN THE MORNING, LATE IN

THE EVENINGS, ON WEEKENDS,

AVAILABLE TO DO WORK.

THE MANY OF THE PROBLEMS ARE

RELATED TO SKILL TRADES LIKE

PLUMBING, PLASTER, PAINTING,

BASIC REPAIRS.

AND THE NEW CONTRACT FAILS TO

COVER MAINTENANCE SKILLS TRADES

WHICH REPRESENTS THE NEED FOR

REPAIRS.

SO THAT'S THE DOWNSIDE OF THE

CONTRACT.

BUT THERE IS ALSO THE THREAT OF

THE RECEIVERSHIP.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS

THREATENING TO TAKE OVER PUBLIC

HOUSING.

AND NOW IF THAT HAPPENS, THAT

WOULD BE THE FIRST TIME IN THE

HISTORY OF NEW YORK CITY THAT

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS

STRIPPED A MAYOR OF CONTROL OF

PUBLIC HOUSING.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT'S AN EMPTY

THREAT OR WOULD THEY FOLLOW

THROUGH?

>> IS IT LIKELY TO HAPPEN?

NO.

BUT THE RISK OF RECEIVERSHIP HAS

NEVER BEEN MORE REAL BECAUSE

NYCHA IS IN A STATE OF

EMERGENCY.

>> THERE IS REASONS FOR PEOPLE

ON THE OTHER SIDE TO LET'S DO

WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO AVOID.

>> THE MAYOR HAS NEVER BEEN

UNDER GREATER PRESSURE TO

IMPROVE CONDITIONS ON PUBLIC

HOUSING BECAUSE HE HAS THE

THREAT OF RECEIVERSHIP HANGING

OVER HIM.

>> WE'LL SEE WHERE THAT GOES TO.

RICHIE TORRES, GOOD TO SEE YOU

AND ALWAYS GOOD TO GET YOUR

THOUGHTS ON ALL OF THIS.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

YOU BE WELL.